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向男性盟友致敬系列01:访谈Sebastien Denes@SAP

Celebrating Men We Trust: Sebastien Denes@SAP

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从小到大,我们记忆中父亲的形象都是不善言辞,以行动说话的。我们从他们身上了解到一个无私的领导者与盟友的特质:给予保护、支持、耐心且乐于奉献。 
今年六月,Ladies Who Tech向我们生命中的所有父亲与特殊的男性致敬。这些男性作为盟友,致力于与女性建立伙伴关系并挑战使女性处于不利地位的组织结构;推动公司内部的多元化和包容性,同时为战胜社会性别不平等做出巨大贡献。
在接下来的几周中,我们将分享这些男性的故事。他们以身作则成为女性权利的拥护者,以此激励周围的人们也加入挑战性别不平等的旅程。我们很自豪地提名并感谢这些鼓舞人心的男性盟友,同时也很高兴地看到我们并不是在独自战斗。
Growing up, we learned that although our fathers weren't men of many words, their actions spoke volumes. From them, we learned what a selfless leader and ally is like: protective, supportive, patient and always giving. 
This June, Ladies Who Tech is honoring all fathers and the special men in our lives, who have been incredible allies committed to building partnerships with women and challenging organizational structures that put women at a disadvantage. These men have driven diversity and inclusion within their companies while contributing significantly to the fight against gender inequality in society.                              
In the following weeks, we will be sharing the stories of such men – who are leading by example by enlisting themselves as champions of women's rights while inspiring those around them to do the same. We are proud to acknowledge and thank these inspiring male allies, at the same time heartened to see that we aren't alone on this journey.

化自己的优势为改变不平等的利器  Using his privilege for the greater good
本周,我们采访了欧洲最大的软件公司SAP的副总裁兼大中华区全球专业技术中心负责人Sebastien Denes。Sebastien领导SAP Premium engagement和专业服务的交付,专注于SAP顶级客户向智能企业的转型。该公司的管理方式为使用最新的技术,将灵感实时转化为业务行动。尖端战略因此加速了数据驱动的创新和流程自动化,启动新的商业模式,并提供了卓越的体验与更多。
Sebastien在SAP快13年了,他领导着一个由400名软件工程师组成的团队。这样一个优秀的团队中,38%的成员是女性。与此同时,作为SAP多元化和包容性(D&I)的拥护者,他长期的主张与努力使得目前管理团队中的女性比例达到40%。他同时也是第一个聘用自闭症员工的SAP中国经理。
“如果你想推动一个组织的包容性,你需要成为一个具有包容性的领导者,并树立正确的榜样。我坚信,推动多元化和包容性(D&I)所得到的远比付出的更多。”
 谈论特权并不容易。让一个人能够跳出局限,客观的认知到自己所拥有的特权与在职场上提出这一问题一样困难,而化自己的优势为利器,利用这些特权为每个人创造公平的竞争环境则更具挑战性——而这正是Sebastien所做到的,并且他所做的并不止于此。
“我出生在这个世界上‘正确’的地方,有‘正确’的肤色、‘正确’的性别、‘正确’的社会阶层、‘正确’的性取向、‘正确’的宗教信仰……这些所谓正确的一切莫名就给予了我数不清的特权。这意味着,在90%的情况下,大门都为我敞开。我只要投入工作,就会有成功的机会。”
“但对世界上大多数人来说,情况并非如此,不管他们付出多少努力,命运的大门永远紧闭。所以我应当打开那扇门,因为伴随所有这些特权而来的是责任。”
This week, we sat down with Sebastien Denes, Vice President and Head of the Global Center of Expertise Greater China at SAP, Europe's largest software company. Sebastien leads the delivery of SAP Premium Engagements and Professional Services, focusing on enabling SAP top customers' transformation towards the Intelligent Enterprise, the company's management approach that uses the latest technologies to turn insight into action across the business in real time. As a result, the cutting-edge strategy accelerates data-driven innovation and process automation, launches new business models, delivers exceptional experiences, and more.
Nearing his 13th year at the company, Sebastien leads an impressive team of 400 software engineers, 38 per cent of whom are female. At the same time, through his long-term efforts as a champion of diversity and inclusion (D&I) at SAP, 40 per cent of his current management team are women. He was also the first SAP China manager to hire an employee on the autism spectrum.
"If you are going to drive inclusion in an organization, you need to be an inclusive leader and set the right example. I am a firm believer that with D&I, you get far more than you give," he told Ladies Who Tech.
Conversations about privilege are not easy. Identifying one's own advantages objectively can be just as difficult as raising the issue in the workplace, and using those advantages to help level the playing field for everyone is even more challenging. And that's exactly what Sebastien did – and more.
"I was born in the 'right' part of the world, with the 'right' skin color, the 'right' gender, the 'right' social class, the 'right' sexual orientation, the 'right' religion… That's a big set of privileges that was somehow given to me. That means, in 90 per cent of the case, the door is wide open for me. I just have to put in the work and I'll have a shot at success," he said.
"But for the majority of the people in this world, that is not the case," he said. "The door would remain closed regardless of the amount of effort they put in. So it's up to me to hold that door open for them. With all that privilege comes duty.”

勇于面对自己持有的偏见 The courage to face your own biases
持有无意识的偏见并不是我们的错,因为这些偏见是由过往长期以来的经验的内化和我们想要将一切进行分类的天性所形成的。但如果我们拒绝承认、识别和纠正它们,那便是我们的错。
以Sebastien为例,他很早就注意到他更倾向于关注那些外向的队友,这意味着那些不怎么说话的人的意见可能会被忽视。 
他立即采取行动纠正了自己的行为:“我开始更加留意会议里的每个人,训练自己停止霸占谈话空间,让其他人参与到对话中。例如在过去,我的管理团队的每周例会中,参与对话的同事总是同一批人。为了改变这种情况,我决定不再主持会议,并制定了一份名单,每周让不同的经理来领导会议。”
“这对我来说是一个顿悟的时刻。现在回想起来,我很高兴自己意识到了这种偏见。作为一个领导者,最重要的是要提醒自己给那些通常不会去主动提出要求机会的人机会。这不仅是一件正确的事情,而且能立即创造附加价值。这一简单的举动将极大地改变职场文化,并产生持久的影响。”
他补充道:“当我们在生活中遇到更多的人,这些偏见就会越来越显而易见。然后就是你作出选择的时候了,是忽略它们,还是解决它们,做出改变。而当你意识到这一点,就已经在解决问题的过程中走了一半。”
Sebastien认为,在企业结构与身份中有意义地体现性别平等对于任何企业的成功都是不可或缺的。积极和包容的文化是一种竞争优势,对吸引、发展和留住人才至关重要。
他说:“有人告诉我,他们决定加入SAP是因为我们优秀的性别平等政策。他们拒绝了其他公司更高的薪水,因为他们在这里很快乐。我们收到了很棒的反馈——因为大家认可了我们在努力创造一种相互感谢、欣赏与且拥有同理心的文化。”
It's not our fault that we hold unconscious biases, which are shaped by years of internalized experiences and our natural tendency to categorize. But it will be our fault if we refuse to acknowledge, identify and correct them.
In Sebastien's case, he noticed early on that he had the tendency to pay more attention to teammates who are more extroverted, which means opinions of those who are not as vocal could be left unheard.
He immediately took action to correct his behaviour: "I started to be more mindful of everyone in the room and trained myself to stop hogging the conversation and let others contribute. For example, in the past, my weekly management team meeting could turn into a discussion among the same colleagues. To change that, I decided to stop leading the meeting and came up with a roster to let different managers take the lead every week.”
"It was an 'aha' moment for me. Looking back, I'm glad that I was aware of the bias. As a leader, the most important thing is to remind yourself to give an opportunity to those who don't usually request it. It's not only the right thing to do but also immediately creates added value. This simple action will transform significantly the culture of the workplace and have a long-lasting impact," he said. 
"As we meet more people in life, these biases would become clearer to us. Then, it's your choice to either ignore them or address them and make a difference. Being aware is already halfway through resolving the problem," he added.
Embodying gender equality in a meaningful way throughout corporate structure and identity is vital to the success of any company, Sebastien believes. A positive and inclusive culture is a competitive edge, and is essential to talent attraction, growth and retention.
"People have told me before that they've decided to join SAP because of our excellent gender equality policy. They've rejected offers with more money because they're happy here. We've received amazing customer feedback because they see our efforts in creating an appreciative and empathetic culture," he said.

为什么我们需要男性盟友 Why we need male allies
真正的盟友会倾听,共同创造机会,并建立个人品牌来承担责任和信任。《哈佛商业评论》(Harvard Business Review)将男性盟友定义为致力于与女性建立关系的优势群体成员,他们在自己的行为中尽可能少地表达性别歧视,理解自己因性别所被赋予的社会特权,并为解决工作和社会中的性别不平等问题做出积极努力。 
然而,当很多公司试图解决性别不平等问题时,他们往往只把精力放在女性身上。这不足以带来系统性的改变,而且可能会把性别多样性归为女性独有的问题,而非一个更广泛的话题。此外,那些试图独自创造有意义变革的女性发现,她们在公司内的人数过少,以至于无法产生必要的影响。
统计数据显示,当男性参与到性别包容项目中时,96%的组织看到了改变——相比之下,没有男性参与的性别包容项目中,只有30%的有所进展。
事实仍然是,当今商界的大多数高级领导人仍然是男性,这使他们处于影响文化和组织变革的最佳位置。这就是为什么男性需要发挥自己的作用,使性别平等成为现实。
在这方面,Sebastien目前在SAP领导着四个主要的多元化和包容性(D&I)项目,包括旨在雇佣自闭症谱系障碍内的工程师的“Autism at Work(工作中的自闭症群体)”项目;侧重于缩小性别薪酬差距,使女性担任领导和专家角色的“Gender Parity(性别平等)”;SAP广泛实施的一项正在进行的举措“LGBTQ+ inclusion(LGBTQ+包容性)”;以及工作场所灵活性与工作-生活的融合。
在家里,Sebastien为他的三个儿子——Alexandre、Gwennael和Lenaig树立了榜样。这样他们就能像他们的父亲一样成为有同理心和同情心的男性盟友。 
“我的妻子Roberta在培养我们的儿子方面做得非常好,我真的非常感谢她。与此同时,我们经常和孩子们讨论包容性文化和价值观,因为我们认为这是他们教育的核心部分。”
Real allies listen, co-create opportunities, and build a personal brand for accountability and trust. The Harvard Business Review defines male allies as members of an advantaged group committed to building relationships with women, expressing as little sexism in their own behavior as possible, understanding the social privilege conferred by their gender, and demonstrating active efforts to address gender inequities at work and in society.
Yet when a lot companies try to fix gender inequities, they often center their efforts solely on women, which isn't enough to bring about systematic change and could risk categorizing gender diversity as a women-only issue instead of a boarder topic. Moreover, women who try to create meaningful change on their own discover that they are too few in number within the company to produce the necessary impact.
Statistics show that when men are engaged in gender inclusion programs, 96 per cent of organizations see progress — compared to only 30 per cent of organizations where men are not involved. 
The truth remains that the majority of senior leaders in today's business world are still men, putting them in the best position to influence cultural and organizational change. That is why men need to play their part to make gender equality a reality.
n that regard, Sebastien is currently leading four major D&I initiatives at SAP, including Autism at Work, which aims to hire engineers within the autism spectrum; Gender Parity, focusing on gender pay-gap reduction, women in leadership and in expert roles; LGBTQ+ inclusion, an on-going initiative widely implemented at SAP; and workplace flexibility and work-life integration for employees.
At home, Sebastien is also a role model for his three young boys – Alexandre, Gwennael and Lenaig – so that they can become empathetic and compassionate male allies like their father.
"My wife Roberta is doing an amazing job raising our sons and I really, really appreciate her. At the same time, we often discuss inclusive culture and values with our boys as we consider it a core part of their education," he said.

“什么都不做就等同于阻挠性别平等的进程” 
"Doing nothing in favour of gender equality equals to working against it"

Sebastien表示,SAP的目标是成为全球最具包容性的科技公司。他们的多元化和包容性(D&I)团队全心全意地工作,以确保每个SAP分支机构遵循他们的政策和当地法规,同时与当局和社会组织建立伙伴关系。简而言之,定义一个全球框架并将之本地化,然后根据SAP 100,000名员工的反馈不断改进。
“越来越多的公司更加积极地促进性别平等与多元化和包容性(D&I)。他们会举办各种活动、活动和会议。尽管如此,我们知道这些仍然远远不够。人们正在等待真正的进展。”
他解释说:“现在每家公司都有能力衡量男女收入差距、女性在工作岗位上的比例、女性在管理岗位和专业岗位上的比例,但很少有公司采取切实、有意义的行动来缩小这一差距。”
Sebastien表示,对于那些希望认真对待性别平衡的公司来说,从小处着手是可以的,只要你有激情和全身心投入的精神。
“探索外部世界,从你周围的多元化和包容性(D&I)社区寻求支持并与他们合作。然后从外部获得反馈,衡量影响,并根据当地需求改进模型。有了这些,你就能更好地改变现有政策或创建新政策。”
这正是当SAP在留住中国女性人才方面遇到困难时,Sebastien的团队所采取的方法。他们尝试引入了弹性工作时间协议,首先在一小群管理人员中试行了这一政策,随后将其推广到所有部门。这个政策,受到了极好的反馈。 
企业还可以明确公开地承诺,让男性作为其性别平等努力的一部分参与进来,例如加入联合国妇女署的“HeforShe 企业影响倡议者”活动;签署联合国妇女赋权原则;或者满足全球企业性别平等认证标准EDGE。
Sebastien说道:“事实上,对性别平衡毫无行动就等同于在给本就不顺畅的进程添堵。舞台已经搭建好,现在是走下去并展示切实的进展的时刻了。”
SAP aims to become the most inclusive tech company in the world, Sebastien said. Their dedicated D&I team work tirelessly to make sure each SAP branch follows through their policies in accordance with local regulations while forming partnerships with authorities and social organizations. In short, a global framework is defined and localized, then constantly refined based on feedback from SAP's 100,000 employees.
"More companies are becoming more active in promoting gender equality and D&I. They're holding initiatives, events and conferences. That being said, this is far from enough and we know it. People are waiting for real progress," Sebastien said.
"Every company is now capable of measuring the gender pay-gap, percentage of women in the workforce, the percentage women in management and in expert roles, but few are taking real, meaningful actions to close that gap," he explained. 
For companies that wish to take gender balance seriously, Sebastien says it's okay to start small, as long as you have passion and dedication.
"Get out there and seek support and collaboration from D&I communities around you and partner with them. Then get feedback, measure the impact, and refine the model based on local needs. With that, you'll be much better equipped to change existing policies or create new ones," he recommended.
This is exactly the approach Sebastien's team took when introducing a flexible working time agreement at SAP, which was having difficulty in retaining female talents in China. They first piloted the policy with a small group of managers and subsequently extended it to all departments. The feedback has been phenomenal.
Companies can also make clear and public commitments to engaging men as allies as part of their gender equality efforts, for example joining UN Women's #HeforShe Corporate Impact Champions; signing the UN's Women's Empowerment Principles; or meeting the global business certification standard for gender equality, EDGE.
"In reality doing nothing in favor of gender balance equals to working against it. The stage has been set, and now it's time to walk and show some tangible progress," Sebastien said.

值得明确的底线是,性别平等不是一个“女性问题”。Ladies Who Tech相信教育是赋权女性的引擎,也是女性未来成功的基础。我们希望,通过研讨会、年度大会与各种活动将女性纳入STEM话题中,企业与组织将受到鼓舞进而制定更多包括女性在内的变革政策。
在这个父亲节月,让我们向我们了不起的男性盟友表达我们的感谢之情,他们把为性别平等而战作为自己的职责和优先事项。当我们汇聚在一起、团结一致时,我们将不断挑战现状,并建立一个更美好的、性别平等的世界。
The bottom line is, gender equality is not a "women's issue". At Ladies Who Tech, we believe education is an engine to women's empowerment and the foundation for a future of success. We hope that through connecting professionals in STEM through workshops, conventions and events, organizations will leave inspired to enact changes that are more inclusive of women.
This Father's Day month, let us express our gratitude to our amazing male allies who have made the battle for gender equality their duty and their priority. As we come together and stand as a united force, we shall keep challenging the status quo and look forward to building a better world of gender justice.

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